Draft "Parent Engagement Policy" not going out to PIC's?

[Gord Wyse]

Thanks People for Education for posting the ministries request for responce on draft Parent Engagement Policy. What I am upset over is why the PIC chairs weren't sent this info and invited to respond. I am not sure how this helps build confidence in who's voice is being heard on Parent Engagement matters. Perhaps the Ministry should come out with a communication policy first as requests for input seem to be hit and miss.

[Mike Hunt]

I concur.
What a good idea to engage the media.
In our area, Special Education planning committees (SEAC) are supposed to "engage" and consult via "invitation to respond" to "all parents receiving special ed services" but none of the special ed parents we know have ever seen an "invitation" to respond. Must have gotten lost in the mail. This is just more of the same. I think advocay and activism training is a great idea and what better organization then P4Eto provide such training and seminars, given all their experience. This could contribute significantly and might even create a new paradigm of parent "empowerment" which can only contribute towards and enhance parent engagement. And like you say, the media are more than happy to spread the word.

Cathy said:

After living over 11 years in this province with school councils and governments of all stripes propping up their speeches with the usual parent platitudes, it's a real shame that parents need to chase down and impress upon a minister the importance out actually walking-the-walk when it comes to outreaching parents.

I've always felt that elected school council representatives are on par with elected trustees AND elected MPPs and should be treated as such. Additionally school councils need to see themselves as the equals in the system they are and learn to play the political games as statutory representatives.

People for Education has learned to play the political game, and very successfully I might ad. Educating parents in the province to do the same would be an effective goal.

I also believe that school council parents need to develop good relationships with their local media and get media training should they wish to grow their community profile. Often, and in case messages like the call for consultation don't get out via school newsletters or normal outreach the local media are happy to spread the word for parents.

[Cathy]

Good points Mike. I have also noticed that many of the parent groups and organizations around the province are made of of mostly parents who are over 40 years old.

Where are the younger parents who will take over for the more "seasoned" parents(nicer than saying "old:)? I don't see them heading up organizations or advocacy groups in the province at all.

Are they there or completely turned off all together. I had a parent make a comment to me the other day saying that they're "too saturated" with information from their child's schools. That plus what he gets from the media and he says it's just easier to ignore it because it's too overwhelming. He said that the school has to get away from making parents feel that it's their obligation to be involved, rather than a thoughtful, personal choice. I kind of agreed with him on his perspective.

[Sheila Stewart]

Hi all! Now that this policy is getting out there, what is the response/interest in giving input? Are PICs meeting to prepare a response? Any other groups? How is input being received?

Cathy made a good point about seasoned parents vs. the younger parents coming in--are attitudes/needs shifting--with engagement and the information needed?

[Jacqui Strachan]

It's Friday the 13th, so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and maybe say something a bit controversial!

Cathy, you have raised a really interesting issue in terms of 'seasoned' parents and those that are newer to the education system. I often sense a similar difference in attitudes between seasoned teachers and the next generation. I wonder if part of the reason for the change in attitude in the younger set is the lack of a 'crisis in education'. Who here remembers John Snobelen? :-)

Many of us in the over-40 set were involved in education during the mid-1990's, when there were huge and often very controversial changes taking place in the education system - amalgamation of school boards, a whole new way of funding schools, massive cuts, new curriculum, etc. The impact of those changes affected a whole generation of parents and teachers. People whose kids are just starting school are coming into a system that is much more stable and settled, and may not feel the need to be involved as intensely as we did when we started. They have more confidence in the 'system', and may not feel the need to get involved in the political/policy side of things. Similarly, younger teachers have only known the new structure, curriculum, testing expectations, etc., and have not been subjected to the level of teacher-bashing that went on at that time. It still happens, but I sense that they don't have the same bitterness and frustration toward the system that the older generation of teachers may.

The education system is by no means perfect now, but there is nowhere near the same level of controversy that there was 10 years ago. People are more likely to get involved when things aren't going well than when they are, which may be why the parents of today are happy to be engaged in their children's education at home (which is the most important thing they can do), while not necessarily getting involved in the broader systemic issues. Sheila, you may be on to something here - do we need to re-assess what kind of information and resources parents need to be engaged in their own child's education? Should we worry less about how many bums are in seats at the school council meetings and whether parents have input on curriculum content, and focus on supporting parental engagement in their own child's education? What do others think?

[Cathy]

Hi Jacqui - I guess my point was that if the advocacy for parents is to continue and to be meaningful those "seasoned" parents whose kids have moved on need to cultivate a younger crowd to do the heavy lifting (so to speak) of all that it takes to advocate for what parents feel is their role within the system. Whether it be as partner, or being involved or engaged there' has to be a wave of 30 "something" parents to carry on.

I also feel that there are just as many issues today that need parent input as their was under John Snobelen. Many of the same issues are cropping up now. How do I know this? From the calls I get and comments that come my way from those younger parents who seem to not know how to be heard and don't know how to get help. I'm stunned by that actually because there is far more help out there for parents than their was 10 years ago.

I also had someone wonder out loud to me the other day whether the Parent Involvement Committees pose a threat to elected trustees? I didn't think so at first, but I began to wonder if the gov't isn't again making an assumption about the health and effectiveness of school councils in setting up the PICs in the greater scheme of things. A very effective and intelligent PIC could logically be the link to the school community that elected trustees have been over the years.

My next thought was whether the current government is unknowingly or purposely putting a squeeze on trustees?

People for Education might recall in one of the very first newsletters the fear re: school councils would be that they would replace trustees? Well, if you saddle school councils and PICS with standards of practice, as is being done now, maybe that's going to just save those trustees by clearly spelling out the parameters of each group.

I've always felt that elected school councils and trustees were on a level playing field by virtue of being elected.

Yep, lots on my mind for sure, but raising the questions might clear things up in the long run. Could a PIC become TOO good and/or TOO successful, making trustees unnecessary?

It's going to be a nice weekend. Nothing like sunshine and fresh air to clear out the cobwebs..

Apologies for the length. I just don't want to see parents being led down a path without their eyes wide open.

[Mike Hunt]

Quote Jacqui Strachan: "People whose kids are just starting school are coming into a system that is much more stable and settled, and may not feel the need to be involved as intensely as we did when we started. They have more confidence in the 'system', and may not feel the need to get involved in the political/policy side of things. Similarly, younger teachers have only known the new structure, curriculum, testing expectations, etc., and have not been subjected to the level of teacher-bashing that went on at that time".

That is an intersting take on people whose kids are just starting school. My experience tells me a different story. I have encountered very few parents of any age bracket who have very much "confidence in the system". There is a profound culture of apathy. It seems to me that rather then not feeling the need to be involved intensely, they feel its pointless and who has the time/effort when there are so many loops to jump through and layers upon layers of bureaucracy and policy.
Those who try to make a difference get frustrated very quickly.
Who has the time. There is an incredibly level of frustration and dissatisfaction smouldering beneath the surface. Many parents are afraid to get too vocal for they fear their dissatisfaction will be visited upon their children.
Young teachers who come in as keeners are intimidated and deflated by some of the old timers/union reps who tell them "you can't do this or that (going the extra mile) because its not part of our collective agreement and if you continue it might become an issue or, alternatively, they are faced with good old "office politics" of becoming persona non-grata because they make the others "look bad" and they find no support for their efforts - the spark disappears eventually and they likewise become disenchanted.... (these are stories that have been shared with me by both keen young teachers and administrators alike). How sad for all of us.

In terms of getting involved with our own children's education - what does that mean? I am certain it means many things to many people. I have a sister who is a single mother with 3 children, working 2 jobs, struggling to keep the wolf from the door and it's all she can do to get the kids ready, lunch in hand, and on the bus in the morning before she races the clock in order to make it to work on time. By the time she gets home, picks her kids up from daycare, gets dinner done, she's ready to drop. What might her take be on "involvement in her child's education"? Where are the voices of the single working class mothers on these threads and who represents their issues/concerns when drafting policy regarding "parent engagement" ?
There are many parents who feel that the job of the educators is to educate; the job of the parents is to get the kids to school - fed, dressed, and refreshed by a good nights sleep. Many parents complain of having to do the teachers job and the amount of homework that comes home - why isn't it being taught/done in class? Too many parents are unfamiliar with the curriculum to feel they can effectively do a job that they trust the educators to fulfill; too many parents don't understand the homework themselves to feel they are of any assistance whatsoever. What kind of "education and resources" can be provided which helps to support parents with such struggles - and may I add, such parent demographic represents a large percentage of all parents in this province.
I am curious to hear what others think about this.

(Interesting how rich these conversations become as they evolve and morph from one issue into another - diving deeper and deeper from the surface and into the depths .... )

[Cathy]

You've pretty much nailed it Mike. When, under the NDP the idea of school councils was suggested and an Ontario Parent Council developed there was all sorts of optimism and excitement from parents who couldn't wait to take their places as working partners in the education system.

So many parents got turned off back then because the resistance to school councils was tremendous.....even from some parent groups, who have since changed their minds about how councils can move their messages and contribute to their research and advocacy. Parents who were community leaders, business owners and professionals in their own right caught on very early in the game that the system would do as little as possible to comply with even the simplest regulations.

The term "advisory" to describe school councils was actually weeded out of the definition on the advice of one Ontario Parent Council so that those parents who wished to do more and make that difference could do so. I recall hearing of wonderful councils that were welcomed into the learning partnership with open arms, nurtured and trusted to be on principal hiring committees.

Too many went the other way though, or opted out of the partnership entirely through an unwillingness by some principals and boards to see the value in what parents bring to the table.

There are some parents, who are genuinely interested in education and who could manage things better than some administrators but who continue to be relegated to fundraising or in the case of community reps. on school councils quit because there's nothing for them to contribute to.

I totally agree with you Mike about an underlying seething or discontentment with what's going on in the classroom these days....it's even coming from those brave individual teachers who dare talk to parents outside of school time who shed light on issues that concern them but which we never hear of.

All I know is that in the 16 years that I was experiencing the education system along with my kids I never needed the carrot of money (funding) to get me involved or engaged. That kind of a relationship between school and home, can't be bought. As a matter of fact, under the former NDP and Tory governments school councils then also had access to money to help them meet the needs of things like copying etc. The problem then though was that there were school and board administrations who did not tell the councils that money was available to them. I believe it was as much as $500.

It disappoints me that parents need to be bought by their own tax money to be involved, when at the same time we're closing schools and budgets are being harder and harder to balance.

The reason I became involved in advocacy work for parents both in and outside the system was not how my kids were treated or because of a serious lack in their education, but it was more about how badly the system dealt with parents who for the most part enter the system with their kids willing and able to contribute but who become apathetic at some point. That point for me came at around the Grade 5 level of both my kids.

I have no kids in the system any longer but I was interested in and employed within the public system before I had kids and am interested still.

I can say with some certainty that the education my older child received was a very different one than the one my youngest received at the same school. There's three years difference. One came out confident and prepared for post-secondary, the other....not so much.

Ok another nice day and I'm going to stop posting for a while because I think I post too often and believe it or not we're putting up Christmas lights outside today - hey better than freezing my butt off"

Thanks for allowing the discussion and this avenue to exchange viewpoints.

[Mary Yates]

Cathy,
You mentioned that there WAS money available to Councils from the Board or Administration (you thought maybe $500 or so). I have been involved with School Councils now for over 10 years and have NEVER been aware of this! I am NOT saying we were not allowed to do copying etc. at the school, I just thought the administration was being "nice". Can you tell me IF this is still the case? IS there money available to ALL Public School Councils? It would be very helpful to know.



Cathy said:

You've pretty much nailed it Mike. When, under the NDP the idea of school councils was suggested and an Ontario Parent Council developed there was all sorts of optimism and excitement from parents who couldn't wait to take their places as working partners in the education system.
So many parents got turned off back then because the resistance to school councils was tremendous.....even from some parent groups, who have since changed their minds about how councils can move their messages and contribute to their research and advocacy. Parents who were community leaders, business owners and professionals in their own right caught on very early in the game that the system would do as little as possible to comply with even the simplest regulations.
The term "advisory" to describe school councils was actually weeded out of the definition on the advice of one Ontario Parent Council so that those parents who wished to do more and make that difference could do so. I recall hearing of wonderful councils that were welcomed into the learning partnership with open arms, nurtured and trusted to be on principal hiring committees.

Too many went the other way though, or opted out of the partnership entirely through an unwillingness by some principals and boards to see the value in what parents bring to the table.

There are some parents, who are genuinely interested in education and who could manage things better than some administrators but who continue to be relegated to fundraising or in the case of community reps. on school councils quit because there's nothing for them to contribute to.

I totally agree with you Mike about an underlying seething or discontentment with what's going on in the classroom these days....it's even coming from those brave individual teachers who dare talk to parents outside of school time who shed light on issues that concern them but which we never hear of.

All I know is that in the 16 years that I was experiencing the education system along with my kids I never needed the carrot of money (funding) to get me involved or engaged. That kind of a relationship between school and home, can't be bought. As a matter of fact, under the former NDP and Tory governments school councils then also had access to money to help them meet the needs of things like copying etc. The problem then though was that there were school and board administrations who did not tell the councils that money was available to them. I believe it was as much as $500.

It disappoints me that parents need to be bought by their own tax money to be involved, when at the same time we're closing schools and budgets are being harder and harder to balance.

The reason I became involved in advocacy work for parents both in and outside the system was not how my kids were treated or because of a serious lack in their education, but it was more about how badly the system dealt with parents who for the most part enter the system with their kids willing and able to contribute but who become apathetic at some point. That point for me came at around the Grade 5 level of both my kids.

I have no kids in the system any longer but I was interested in and employed within the public system before I had kids and am interested still.

I can say with some certainty that the education my older child received was a very different one than the one my youngest received at the same school. There's three years difference. One came out confident and prepared for post-secondary, the other....not so much.

Ok another nice day and I'm going to stop posting for a while because I think I post too often and believe it or not we're putting up Christmas lights outside today - hey better than freezing my butt off"

Thanks for allowing the discussion and this avenue to exchange viewpoints.

[Cathy]

Hi Mary - the money that used to be available to councils was found in a board's portion of the Foundation Grant. Councils could, through their principal ask the board for money if they wished. Most boards used that money for a mass training event of some sort for the entire board. As with most things different boards handled the requests and the money differently...if at all. Too many parents on councils never knew that money was available so never asked for it.

I'm pretty sure that at of late school councils definitely have money allocated to them. That you are a council member and don't know is a concern for me. If you sift through some of the discussion here, or if someone more knowledgeable on the money available to councils could answer Mary's question?

[Mary Yates]

Hi again,
I guess I first must clarify....Every year we DO get $500. This is a Base Mobilization and Outreach Grant to enhance and support Parent Involvement. Perhaps this IS what you were mentioning. I think the way it was worded about the OLD way, that Councils were given money that MAYBE this 'gift' is the same thing just under a 'new name'. I'm sorry if I have people scratching their heads.

Cathy said:

Hi Mary - the money that used to be available to councils was found in a board's portion of the Foundation Grant. Councils could, through their principal ask the board for money if they wished. Most boards used that money for a mass training event of some sort for the entire board. As with most things different boards handled the requests and the money differently...if at all. Too many parents on councils never knew that money was available so never asked for it.

I'm pretty sure that at of late school councils definitely have money allocated to them. That you are a council member and don't know is a concern for me. If you sift through some of the discussion here, or if someone more knowledgeable on the money available to councils could answer Mary's question?

[Gay Stephenson]

Looks like you (Mary and Cathy) have cleared the question of parent council funding up. But because we do get a fair number of inquiries about it, I thought I'd post both a link and a slide from Nancy Naylor's (Asst. Deputy Minister, Operations and Finance, Ministry of Education) presentation of the 2009-10 Grants for Student Needs, Overview.

Here's the link to the entire presentation:

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/funding/0910/overview09_10.pdf

This is slide # 19:

[Sheila Stewart]

I would guess that there was no consistency regarding a school council fund across boards "pre-Ministry $500" for school councils. Some may have supported/communicated a budget for each principal for school councils, some may have not?

All great ideas and conversation here......a variety of questions that are important. Back to Jacqui's thoughts......and this discussion's original topic.....the draft policy still speaks to supporting all the different kinds of parent involvement/engagement.......but in my mind the question remains: What does that mean for the mandated school councils and PICs trying to set goals and a vision......? Is it to be local decision?